Neil Koenig Senior TV Series Producer and ideaXme interviewer, in conversation with Benjamina Bollag, founder and CEO of Uncommon.
Neil comments: As concerns about the sustainability of food production grow, could so-called “cellular agriculture” be part of the answer? A new Cambridge-based startup called Uncommon is one of a host of new players that are trying to find out. Instead of raising pigs on a farm, Uncommon is aiming to produce pork by “growing” it in a lab or factory. So how does the process work? On its website, the company explains that it obtains ”sample cells — specifically stem cells — from a traditionally farmed animal, and then we nurture them to reach a state where they can infinitely grow using a process called reprogramming”. Uncommon believes that the process can result in a product that has “the potential to be the same as traditional meat right down to the molecular level”. It adds that it does “not use genetically modified pork cells or antibiotics in our manufacturing process.” Still, it’s a field that is not without controversy. Some observers worry about issues such as safety and the potential impact on the traditional farming industry; indeed, Florida has recently banned “lab-grown” meat. But enthusiasts believe that products like cultivated meat have a bright future, offering a revolutionary way to produce food in a much more sustainable manner, amongst many other benefits. I met Uncommon’s founder Benjamina Bollag at this year’s Symposium, organised by the students of St Gallen university in Switzerland. In this interview with me for ideaXme, Benjamina Bollag talks about how the idea for her startup came about, the many challenges involved in creating a radically new type of food, and her hopes and dreams for the future.
ideaXme interview with Founder, Uncommon
Neil Koenig: [00:00:24] Welcome to ideaXme. I’m Neil Koenig. Can you produce pork without pigs? That’s the question that Uncommon, a Cambridge based start-up, is trying to answer. The venture is one of several in the emerging field of cultivated meat. This new kind of food is not produced on a farm, but instead is grown in a lab or factory. Proponents believe that cultivated meat can offer health and other benefits, as well as playing a role in making food production more sustainable. I met Uncommon’s co-founder Benjamina Bollag at the recent symposium organised by the students of St. Gallen University in Switzerland. I began this interview with Benjamina by asking her to tell us a little more about herself and her background.
Benjamina Bollag: [00:01:16] I actually grew up in Switzerland. So, not too far from here in Geneva. And I then moved to London about 12 years ago to study Chemical Engineering at Imperial College. And I then created a small start-up, but then realised I really wanted to do something that had a huge impact on people’s health. And that’s when I joined an accelerator called Entrepreneur First and then got started with Uncommon. This was all about six years ago. I started Uncommon with the purpose of doing something for health. And then I went narrower by working on cultivated meat. And now we’re thinking about how we take it broader and not just work within cultivated meat, but also use our technologies to enable biotech to be more accessible across the planet.
Neil Koenig: [00:02:12] What’s your background? You studied science?
Benjamina Bollag: [00:02:15] Yes, chemical engineering, but I would say my co-founder is the scientist. So, our chief scientific officer and my co-founder, is Dr. Ruth Faram. She has about 20 years of cell and molecular biology experience. She did a master’s and PhD, 3 postdocs at Oxford University. So, we couldn’t choose if we went to Oxford or London, that is between the Oxford or Imperial background. So, we ended up in Cambridge!
Neil Koenig: [00:02:41] Yes. Well, we won’t go into the politics, the rivalry between those various institutions. Where did the idea for this project come from?
Benjamina Bollag: [00:02:53] So the concept of cultivated meat has been around since the 1970s. So do we making, you know, meats using cell culture technologies is not something that I’ve invented. It is not new. Where we came in is how do we create technologies that allow us to scale it. So, how do we make it more affordable? How do we make it more available, and how do we make it more desirable? And those technologies came by working on it. So, I spent about two years really understanding what others had been doing and the technologies that were out there, and then partnered with Ruth. And she’s the main inventor behind a lot of our technologies.
Neil Koenig: [00:03:36] But how did you become interested, first of all, in the idea of what is now known as cultivated meat? And we’ll come on to explain what that is in a moment.
Benjamina Bollag: [00:03:46] So for me, I would say it started, in childhood. My dad throughout my whole childhood and adulthood put into my head that health is everything. And I couldn’t complain about anything. He would always shut me down. And ask how’s your health? And if my health was good, then he would say nothing else mattered. And he also in parallel, he had some health issues. And I think seeing him go through having a kidney transplant and the horrors of dialysis before that, made me realise I wanted to do something in health and that affected people’s health. And that’s when I joined Entrepreneur First, I iterated on different ideas. So actually, started with a mental health idea, but I discarded that quite quickly because it was not a good idea. And, then came across cultivated meat.
Neil Koenig: [00:04:47] So it was just a sort of serendipitous thing. You were taking part in this start-up accelerator.
Benjamina Bollag: [00:04:54] Exactly. And I think, you know, the way I see it, you want for your career to do something akin to a Venn diagram. So, you want to define the mission and the purpose, which for me was around health, but you also want to do something you’re decently good at and that you enjoy the everyday of it. So, I’m less good, for example, in the lab. So, if I was pipetting all day towards cancer research, it wouldn’t be the right fit for me. So, you want something through which you can have an impact. You enjoy what you’re doing, but also obviously, you want to do something which has the biggest impact on the world.
Neil Koenig: [00:05:32] So what is cultivated meat?
Benjamina Bollag: [00:05:34] So the way it works is that we take a small sample of cells from the animal, in our case a pig, and then we get the cells to become similar to embryonic stem cells so that they can grow a lot. We do that without any gene editing, and we get the cells to grow, and then we turn them into muscle and fat. And then we add different plant-based proteins and fats and nutrients, to give the cells more texture and to enhance the flavour.
Neil Koenig: [00:06:06] Well, there’s quite a lot in what you’ve just said and particularly for a wide general audience. How much of a sample do you need and how much can you make from that sample?
Benjamina Bollag: [00:06:18] So we don’t need much. In reality, we do take we try and take bigger samples when the animal is not alive. When it’s alive, it’s easier because you can go back to it. But what we need for[00:06:34] the novel food regulations [00:06:36] we need to show how our samples compare to the original animal, and for that you need bigger quantities. But for us, you know, we could take the size of sample, from cows you would normally get from tagging them. That’s enough. You can have a tiny skin sample. The technologies that we use received a Nobel Prize back in 2012. And that’s because you can take any cell in the body and get it to expand pretty much infinitely. So, it’s a pretty cool technology. Okay.
Neil Koenig: [00:07:14] So you got your sample then what? How do you make it expand? Presumably you need lots of other raw materials. Where do they come from and what are they?
Benjamina Bollag: [00:07:23] We’re trying essentially to mimic blood. Others originally used foetal bovine serum, but we don’t use this at all. So, it’s a mixture of amino acids, different vitamins, sugars and things like growth factors as well, to try and push the cells to either grow more or become muscle or fat.
Neil Koenig: [00:07:46] Where does this take place? In a huge vat, in a vast factory?
Benjamina Bollag: [00:07:50] Exactly. So, at the moment, we don’t have yet the huge factory. We have a pilot plant that’s situated in Cambridge. So, it’s about a 15,000 square foot facility.
Neil Koenig: [00:08:01] You’re still really in the development stage, aren’t you? What’s the hope? You’re going to scale this up? So, there are huge factories everywhere making this product?
Benjamina Bollag: [00:08:11] Exactly. So, with pork we’re looking to create our own brand. And then with other animals we’re open to more B2B partnerships.
Neil Koenig: [00:08:21] Going back to the raw materials, I mean, what are the sources of these raw materials? Are they basically all derived from plants?
Benjamina Bollag: [00:08:31] It depends which ones. We do look at the whole supply chain and the sustainability angle. The main factor actually from a sustainability angle is less the raw materials. We don’t use a lot of growth factors. So those are the ones that typically that require fermentation and a lot of energy, and we don’t use a lot and, in some cases, not at all. We replace it with RNA technologies that require a lot less of it. But the main thing is when we have those big vats, where is our energy source from? At manufacturing scale will be using fully renewable energy.
Neil Koenig: [00:09:14] Now, you mentioned two phrases which again, might be slightly mysterious to our audience, growth factors and RNA. First of all, what are growth factors?
Benjamina Bollag: [00:09:23] So growth factors are proteins that help tell the cells essentially to grow and or turn into different types of tissues. We use RNA to replace a lot of the growth factors or small molecules. So, the principle is actually similar to vaccines in which there is a messenger RNA that tells your cells what to do. Except, we have a delivery method that’s relying completely on natural materials. [00:09:57] It’s a different purpose. So, we use it to direct our cells to become muscle, versus target a disease.
Neil Koenig: [00:10:06] Now, RNA has been somewhat in the news recently because of the pandemic.
Benjamina Bollag: [00:10:12] That’s right.
Neil Koenig: [00:10:13] It played a role in development of vaccines. So just explain what RNA is and how you can make use of it.
Benjamina Bollag: [00:10:20] So I mean RNA is one of the main building blocks of life. Messenger RNA essentially tells your cells what to do. And so, we use it to tell ourselves to become muscle. If you remember, from the vaccines, one of the big problems, was that it had to be refrigerated at, you know, -80. And actually, for us it’s in some way a good thing because that means that it’s inherently unstable. So, it’s not in the end product. So, we get it to do what we want. But actually, by the time that you eat our product, it’s not there anymore at all. That’s one of the reasons that we decided to work with it.
Neil Koenig: [00:11:11] That’s a very interesting use of something that was a problem in one field and a real bonus in another.
Benjamina Bollag: [00:11:19] Exactly.
Neil Koenig: [00:11:21] Are other players in this market also using RNA?
Benjamina Bollag: [00:11:26] So not in the way that we are. So, if patented quite broadly, no one uses it in the way we are and we believe that this will allow us to be one of the companies that without gene editing, can really scale and bring both availability and affordability, to the consumer.
Neil Koenig: [00:11:44] Okay, here’s another phrase gene editing. What’s that?
Benjamina Bollag: [00:11:49] So gene editing can come with many different forms, but typically is when you actually alternate the genome of the cells. Now, there’s nothing inherently wrong with that. The problem is that in Europe, it’s very difficult to go through regulatory approval with anything that is gene genome where the genome is actually edited. In comparison to us, our technology does not integrate the genome.
Neil Koenig: [00:12:15] So that’s an advantage for you then?
Benjamina Bollag: [00:12:17] Exactly. Because we can bring, you know, we want this to be all around the world. We’re starting with UK, US. But we do want to bring this to Europe. And Europe is one of the big pork markets. So, it’s important for us to be able to be available throughout the world.
Neil Koenig: [00:12:33] Now let’s move on to the actual product. Uh, what does it look like? And how would you buy it in a shop? What would you get?
Benjamina Bollag: [00:12:44] So our first product is bacon. We wanted to choose a product that people really love, but also there’s not enough good alternatives when it comes to bacon. And we see also it’s a product that has a lot of benefits, but also a lot of things that are not quite right with it. There are a lot of antibiotics in pork, but also there’s something in it that makes people feel quite heavy when they eat it. There’s a lot that we can do with this category from a product proposition. So, our bacon is not just sustainable, but actually something that consumers enjoy.
Neil Koenig: [00:13:29] What does it look like?
Benjamina Bollag: [00:13:30] It looks like bacon. I would say from a look’s perspective and texture perspective, we’re pretty much spot on. As far as taste, it’s very similar, but there are some nuances that we’re still working on. So, give us a couple of years and we’ll have it indistinguishable.
Neil Koenig: [00:13:47] Do you add salt?
Benjamina Bollag: [00:13:49] We do.
Neil Koenig: [00:13:50] And what about some of the preservatives that people are worried about? Do you have to add those, or can you get away with not using those?
Benjamina Bollag: [00:14:00] So, we’re still testing different solutions. I probably can’t answer that one yet.
Neil Koenig: [00:14:06] Oh, okay.
Benjamina Bollag: [00:14:08] But hopefully not. I mean, we grow in a contained environment and there’s a lot less chance of food borne diseases. So, I think it’s an area, you know, if not for the first products, we can definitely have an impact on the longer term.
Neil Koenig: [00:14:21] So, your bacon will come off a production line. And then what? How does it get to the supermarket and what will the consumer find on the shelf?
Benjamina Bollag: [00:14:29] So we expect it to be very similar. We have a new angle when it comes to the branding. But actually, in terms of the product itself, we expect it to be very similar. We’ll start with something maybe partially cooked and more restaurants to start with, just so that people can get used to the product, and then go to supermarket. So that will be a few years later.
Neil Koenig: [00:14:52] What do professional chefs make of this? Have you shown them your prototypes yet?
Benjamina Bollag: [00:14:59] Yeah, we have. People are excited by it. But I think chefs are really picky. So, there are a few more things to address. We want to improve and perfect the product. But we’ve already seen other companies bring their products to market through some of the world’s best chefs.
Neil Koenig: [00:15:21] I remember a few years ago, I did a piece about the use of 3D printing in food and talked to a top chef in Barcelona. And I was saying to him that, you know, traditionalists might say this is an outrage using technology in food. And he said, chefs have been using new technology for centuries.
Benjamina Bollag: [00:15:46] Exactly! I think it’s a great place to start. I think what we want to be careful about is that we do want this to really have an impact. We need this to go to the masses and not just stay with the high-end restaurants. And so, we want to make sure that when we launch, it goes yes through chefs and we work with chefs, but it’s also accessible throughout the world to different people.
Neil Koenig: [00:16:13] Is branding going to be important then?
Benjamina Bollag: [00:16:16] Yes, very. We think that we have quite a different proposition when it comes to the branding. We have a different target market, and we’ve seen that we get about 77% of purchase intent in that specific target with our proposition.
Neil Koenig: [00:16:34] And you’ve got to make it cool, haven’t you?
Benjamina Bollag: [00:16:37] Yes. Although I think that the main things are that plant-based meat had an issue with, was that they made it cool to try it, but they didn’t focus enough on the retention. And that’s what made it very difficult because, you know, compared to typically, you know, meat, bread, things that people purchase on a daily basis, you have like 80% retention on products, whereas plant based, if you had the people that had 20 were actually on the top end, most people had more around, um, 11%, repurchase rates. And that’s something we need to do differently and to make sure that it’s not just cool to try it, but cool to eat it on a continual, continuous basis.
Neil Koenig: [00:17:23] What do, the vegan and vegetarian communities make of this?
Benjamina Bollag: [00:17:28] So I guess the short answer is it matters less. Our target is not the vegan and vegetarian community. We’re looking at some flexitarians as well, but less the kind of core vegan community. They already don’t eat meat, so it’s less of an issue. But we’ve seen mixed responses. Some are really excited by it and see the potential for it to. They understand that people are not going to go vegan and, and therefore, you know, they see it as an opportunity, whereas some are still uncomfortable with the idea that people need to have something similar to meat and say, well, why don’t we just all eat, you know, beans and carrots and it will be fine.
Neil Koenig: [00:18:09] Do you think you have a taste advantage over, say, the plant-based products?
Benjamina Bollag: [00:18:15] I think so. Actually, as a company, as with even our plant based, product itself. We have a pure plant-based formulation. People from other plant-based meat companies or even meat companies who have tasted our products have said that it’s way beyond anything, any bacon product on the market, even any bacon product they’ve tried in R&D. So, I’m really confident that, given our plant based alone is already incredibly better, with the cells, it’s really going to outperform everything comparable.
Neil Koenig: [00:18:52] If this is a success and there are lots of plants making this kind of stuff that might come with some disadvantages, mightn’t it? I mean, that’s probably a lot of energy we’re talking about. And you might be a player that wants to use sustainable sources for the energy but maybe not everyone will?
Benjamina Bollag: [00:19:17] Yes, I think the majority when I when I speak to colleagues, we’re all aligned and agree that we need this to happen. I think the whole market, the energy market is shifting to be more and more sustainable. And I think the cool thing is, we are advancing, but there are other technologies in parallel that are also advancing. I mean, by the time that we’re really at an enormous scale, maybe we’ll even have fusion energy. Right. And so, there’s a lot of technologies that are happening in parallel. So, I think one of the things when people criticise the sector, they get their facts wrong. I mean, they often even talk about technologies of five years ago, but the main thing is that they don’t even look how adjacent technologies are going to progress at the same time as us. So, they said, well, you know, you’re going to have to use energy. It’s too expensive. Well, yes, but people are working on cheaper, sustainable options. Even with the RNA technologies, I mean, we see there’s so much going on in the biotech field. So, we work on how we use what we have to help them, but also vice versa. And the whole economy is progressing together.
Neil Koenig: [00:20:34] How can you keep track or keep ahead of any problems with food safety, with this product that you know might take a while to emerge?
Benjamina Bollag: [00:20:48] Again, it’s coming back to what I just said. We are evolving as a company at the same time. So, you know, we’re not just going to go from where we are to having, you know, 100 plants and taking over the whole meat industry in two days. Right. Like, things take time. It takes time to create, to build new plants, to evolve and during that time, we can keep track. And I think in a way, we’re lucky that we’re starting this sector at a time that we are aware of sustainability, that we are aware of all these safety aspects. I think the other thing is, things are becoming more and more personalised. So actually, another portfolio company of our investors called Zoe, for example, right. They look at more personalised nutrition. And we’re lucky that tools like that are there and we can leverage that when we scale up. So maybe, you know, version one might not have it, but version two, three, can make as we scale and as this grows to the full population, we can make sure that things are more personalised and right for everyone. Because the main thing is red wine is great for some people and maybe others less so. And that’s why it’s so, I think confused.
Neil Koenig: [00:22:08] So, we’re going from personalised medicine to personalised food?
Benjamina Bollag: [00:22:12] Exactly.
Benjamina Bollag: [00:22:14] Both are still evolving.
Neil Koenig: [00:22:16] Is it going to be possible in the future, do you think, for you to order, you know, a very particular kind of bacon that only you like or whatever. Can you be that specific?
Benjamina Bollag: [00:22:27] I think at some point, yes, it’s going to take it’s going to take some time. It’s going to be more of a I think it’s going to be more of a mix and match. Right. You could be saying like the percentage of fat, maybe specific nutrients that you want. I think for the first maybe few years, it’s going to be more categories. Some people are doing 3D printing. So already starting with that. But the scale of it is a bit smaller.
Neil Koenig: [00:22:56] What about religious communities? Religious groups. What’s the reaction from those groups so far? Is it still too early?
Benjamina Bollag: [00:23:05] Yeah, it’s quite early, I would say. I mean, we work in pork. It’s a 400 billion market without some of the big religions, in it. And, and so from a business perspective, I would say it’s more of a philosophical than a business perspective question. I think halal would be difficult. There’s already, you know, difficulties with anything that comes back to the pig, even in the medical sector. From a kosher perspective, we hear mixed, mixed things. I think people that are already on the verge might eat it. But I think the very religious market is probably going to be the really late adopters.
Neil Koenig: [00:23:51] This presumably also offers the chance of creating entirely new foods?
Benjamina Bollag: [00:23:57] Yes.
Benjamina Bollag: [00:23:59] So the company, for example, Vow in Australia, is taking a completely different approach and going for more exotic animals, for example. The way we think about it is we want to really reduce the kind of friction for the consumer. There is already so much as you mentioned for you to get your head around like this is cells. This is mixed with some plants, this and that. There’s so much to get your head around. We don’t want to add another layer, so we wanted at least to look and taste familiar, at least at the start.
Neil Koenig: [00:24:33] The aim of this series is to talk to people who are trying to Move the human story forward™. Is that what you’re hoping your project is going to do?
Benjamina Bollag: [00:24:42] It is. Our mission is really to be the greatest enablers of a healthier world, and to do that through cultivated meat, but also to partner with biotech companies and enable therapeutic solutions. So yeah, it’s really what we’re pushing for every day.
Neil Koenig: [00:25:00] And five, ten years’ time. Where would you hope the project to be?
Benjamina Bollag: [00:25:06] So I think in 5 to 10 years’ time we hope to be in multiple geographies. So, across the planet. So, both in, you know, in the US, in Europe but also in Asia. We hope to have big factories and really be in the multiple billion revenues. Um, and that’s with pork, but also have partnerships when it comes to the other, meats and, and have seen that our technologies have an impact on IPS therapies or vaccines as well.
Neil Koenig: [00:25:37] So you’re not thinking of going into chicken or other flavours? But you would you do that with other people?
Benjamina Bollag: [00:25:45] Exactly. It makes it easier to partner with other companies working with those species, if we say our brand is sticking to pork for now.
Neil Koenig: [00:25:53] Benjamina. Thank you very much!
Benjamina Bollag: [00:25:55] Thank you.
The transcription of the original interview has been paraphrased to add clarity. We have made every attempt to convey what we understood to be the meaning of what was said.
If you enjoyed this interview check out our discussion with Dr. Jo Zayner, CEO The Odin.
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