Dr. Jo Zayner, PhD, Biophysics, founder of The ODIN talks with ideaXme’s founder, Andrea Macdonald.
Dr. Jo Zayner Biochemist and Genetic Engineer
Dr. Jo Zayner is a visionary biochemist and genetic designer. Zayner is transgender and uses she/her pronouns advocating for diversity, body autonomy and science for all.
For over 15 years, she has pioneered work in the field of bioengineering, publishing a number of scientific papers on the topic. Jo received her PhD in Biophysics from the University of Chicago, winning several awards for their work on engineering proteins. She then spearheaded work on developing engineered microbes for Mars terraforming at NASA, eventually leaving to start The ODIN, a bioengineering company based in Austin, Texas that is working to make genetic engineering accessible to everyone.
Zayner Focus Of Neflix Documentary Unnatural Selection
Zayner’s groundbreaking work in human genetic engineering and medicine has been the focus of many documentaries, including the Netflix documentary Unnatural Selection and the NYT documentary Gut Hack. She has been made fun of on Last Week Tonight with John Oliver and written about in media all over the world including The New York Times, The New Yorker, El País, Le Monde, Time, Scientific American and NPR, among others.
Dr Zayner, BioArtist
Somehow Jo still finds time to be an accomplished artist whose work has been featured in exhibits at San Francisco MoMA, Philadelphia Museum of Art, NY MoMA, ZKM and the Smithsonian. Zayner is transgender and uses she/her pronouns advocating for diversity, body autonomy and science for all.
Dr. Jo Zayner’s ideaXme Interview
Andrea Macdonald: [00:00:19] Who are you?
Dr Jo Zayner: [00:00:25] I am Jo Zayner, and I am a scientist and lover. I like to do and seek creative and beautiful things.
Andrea Macdonald: [00:00:35] Tell us a little bit about your story.
Dr Jo Zayner: [00:00:38] My story. Where do I start? How far back are we talking here?
Andrea Macdonald: [00:00:44] Go back to your PhD and talk of the reasons why you decided not to continue in academia.
Dr Jo Zayner: [00:00:55] Give me a second. Because it was a traumatic time in my life.
Dr Jo Zayner: [00:01:02] It’s interesting, there aren’t a lot of academics in science with PhD’s, who would say: “That was the best time of my life!” I don’t think that I’ve ever heard anybody say that working on and ultimately getting their PhD was the best time in their life, which is kind of sad.
Leaving NASA
Dr Jo Zayner: [00:01:27] For me, I learned a lot. I don’t think I would be where I am today without a PhD from University of Chicago. The people there are amazing scientists. I also think that the learning environment and the way that science is done in these setting is, pushing towards a very dogmatic view of science in the world. And that’s just not who I am as a person. I’m very iconoclastic. And so, I realised that maybe doing science in this type of environment wasn’t for me. And thought, maybe I can do science in another environment where I’d be happier, and it would fit me and my personality better. So, I left, and I started working at NASA, the space agency.
Andrea Macdonald: [00:02:35] And you left because you didn’t like how things worked there?
Dr Jo Zayner: [00:02:42] Yeah. It used to be that people did science to discover things or, because they were curious about things. But it has become so like commoditised. People now do science to publish papers and get grants and. Things have strayed so far away from the original point of just trying to understand the world around us and what’s going on. And even places like NASA are like that. This is sad because science is this really fun, amazing thing that we have as human beings! One of the things that separates us from all other animals is our ability to build technology and understand the world around us. To build on that understanding of the world.
Science as a Superpower
Dr Jo Zayner: [00:03:56] It’s such a superpower. I think people don’t understand the degree to which that is true and the extent of the possibilities in that regard. And being able to utilize that to do cool and fun stuff. I wonder: Why aren’t people doing that?
The ODIN, Open Discovery Institute
Andrea Macdonald: [00:04:14] So you want to spark curiosity in the biotechnology sector and invite the public in? And with that in mind, you established a really fascinating organization called The ODIN. Can you talk to us about that and what you think it overcomes?
Dr Jo Zayner: [00:04:34] Around the time that I was at NASA, and I realized that the science that I wanted to do is completely different. It is very curiosity driven and not for the goal of publishing or getting grants. And I wanted other people to be able to experience this stuff. So, I started my company, The Open Discovery Institute, The ODIN we call it. It helps people learn how to do science and genetic engineering in their own homes. I think that in order for there to be innovation in these areas, people need to be educated and they need to be free from the shackles of the academic world. Somebody who’s experimenting in their garage is probably doing it for the sake of the science, rather than to publish papers and get grants. I think these people are our hope for the future of science.
Andrea Macdonald: [00:05:46] You’ve come up against issues with the FBI and the FDA. Can you talk to us a little bit about that?
Dr Jo Zayner: [00:05:56] No! I’m not allowed to. (laughs) I’m joking. I can talk about it, well, most of it, at least. I think it’s interesting, and I get it that when you have new technologies, a lot of the time people don’t understand them or they don’t know what’s going on with them, and so they are afraid. You can see this happening a lot with AI, and I’m not saying like, we shouldn’t be afraid of AI or conversely that we should be afraid of AI, but every time a new technology rolls around, we are all scared and afraid. And our first thought is: How can we regulate this? How can we stop this? Instead of first trying to understand it? That usually comes later. And I’ve run into that a bunch with government agencies in the US and in other parts of the world. Some reactions are: You’re going to cause a viral outbreak!” How do they think that this is even possible? Our kits, (sold on The ODIN website) don’t even have viruses. They are not designed to teach people to work with viruses. So, how do you they expect that to happen? The other reaction has been: You’re going to cause people to get illness or diseases or similar. That is just not possible! Our kits are specifically engineered so that they’re not harmful to humans.
Dr Jo Zayner: [00:07:34] I understand that people are scared and afraid. It’s sad how little people know of this area. The level of knowledge we have of biological things is so much less than our knowledge of consumer technology. We’re made of biological things and the level of knowledge we have about ourselves is so much less compared to like, cell phones and computers.
Regulating Biotech and Bioactivism
Andrea Macdonald: [00:08:01] You’ve likened it a little bit to the invention of the car. And you’ve said you wouldn’t be opposed to similar sort of regulations in as far as stoplights, and driver’s licenses and so on to regulate or quasi regulate the biotech industry. Could you talk a little bit about that?
Dr Jo Zayner: [00:08:36] I think that there’s things that we can all agree upon. As much as I like to be, anarchic and iconoclastic, I am a reasonable human being. Most of the time! (laughs) I think there’s stuff that we can all agree upon that. For example, people shouldn’t be working with Ebola or something like that in their own homes. I think that you’re like on the fringes of society if that is what you want to do, or you advocate for that. If a tornado comes through and blows down your house and you’re working with Ebola, even if you have like a really nice lab, you’re going to release Ebola into your neighbourhood. That’s not cool! And so, I think that there are certain things that we can all agree on that don’t infringe on people’s rights but help protect everybody from, unintended negative consequences.
Guidelines in Biotech and Bioactivism would bring more confidence
Dr Jo Zayner: [00:09:46] And I think having some guidelines would bring a lot more confidence in what people do in this sector. I think getting to the point where the government is reasonable and moves fast with any sort of technology is extremely difficult. But it is necessary. I imagine 10, 15 years from now they’re going to come out with our guidelines for this stuff. That is too late. Everybody’s already doing this stuff everywhere!
Who is benefiting from investment in biotech?
Andrea Macdonald: [00:10:18] So I think a major issue is, of course, whilst $240 billion are being spent a year on biotechnology. Who’s actually benefiting from this? Given how expensive, the resulting medications are? Could you talk a little bit about that and the unfairness of and the lack of the level playing field as far as patients are concerned?
Dr Jo Zayner: [00:10:51] It hard, if you look at drug development or even agricultural development. A lot of this stuff stems from government funded research at some level. Sometimes a good chunk of it stems from government funded research. But when these things come to the real world, a commercial company then will come in and do the run the clinical trial to bring it to market and charge whatever they want. When this whole thing from the beginning was government funded and supported. Our taxpayer’s money is used for research, which is supposed to be helping and saving lives, whether it is in agriculture, vaccines, medicines generally or gene therapies. And then people are charged, sometimes millions of dollars for the output of this research. But public don’t get access to this because government regulations don’t allow it. Access takes too long.
Dr Jo Zayner: [00:12:12] It is a really complicated and difficult landscape, because there’s so much power at stake. At the same time, governments are so afraid of people getting unintentionally getting hurt.
Advancements in Biotech 20 years ahead of what we are experiencing in our lives
Speaker5: [00:12:32] The technology is, biotech is 20 years ahead of what we (the public) are currently experiencing in our lives. And that’s just sad.
The price of gene therapies
Dr Jo Zayner: [00:12:52] The big questions are: How can we create a better environment for innovation? And how can we help (and encourage) the government to allow these things to bring benefit to all of us? Because right now very few gene therapies get approved and when they do, they cost millions of dollars.
Dr Jo Zayner: [00:13:15] Whats more, few (genetically engineered) crops, that could be beneficial to the world, are approved. It’s kind of sad right now.
Andrea Macdonald: [00:13:25] I was really interested to read recently that over 400 million people are affected by rare disease, which seems, in a sense a contradiction in terms, assuming, that there’s even less investment in that area (that filters down to the public as a benefit) because it’s rare. You are a big advocate of allowing people who have these diseases or worse still, have been told effectively there is no hope for them to be allowed to take a risk. The thinking is it is their body after all.
Dr Jo Zayner: [00:14:13] I think one of the hard things to realize is that most of us don’t experience this. Is that if you have an illness that does not have a treatment, he government’s not going to save us. The medical industry is not going to save us.
Dr Jo Zayner: [00:14:44] With an (terminal) illness without a treatment, you’re just out of luck. In this situation, literally, there’s no treatment. There’s nothing they can do. Usually, they just tell you’re going to die. And here’s what we can do to be more comfortable for the last months of your life or whatever.
Dr Jo Zayner: [00:15:09] And it’s really sad because I’ve had a lot of people reach out to me who are in this position. The medical doctors, the government, everybody says there’s nothing they can do for me. They ask: Is there anything I can do for myself?
Dr Jo Zayner: [00:15:25] People come to me with this question all the time. It’s really hard. I’m one individual. I’m not a medical doctor. I’m not somebody who can give people medical care. It’s just a system set up to not help people who are who don’t have mainstream diseases and illnesses. Why is that? I mean, the sad truth is, a lot of times it’s money. In the case of rare disease, if a drug company can’t make money from it, they have little to no incentive to develop a drug for it. And. These two systems are fighting against each other. And it’s tough.
Dr Jo Zayner: [00:16:11] Drug companies aren’t incentivized in a capitalistic society to make drugs for people with rare diseases. You know, it’s not going to make them billions of dollars a year. Their shareholders aren’t going to be happy. Right? They’re not increasing their revenue. As much as we want to believe people operate out of the goodness of their heart like. They don’t.
Andrea Macdonald: [00:16:42] It leaves a very sad place in our society. I think it’s something that we need to think harder on how to fix.
Andrea Macdonald: [00:16:55] In February this year. A baby who has MLD (Metachromatic leukodystrophy) in the UK was the first to receive this special genetically engineered drug. The cost was apparently £2.8 million. Apparently, the NHS, the British government health system, negotiated them down a little. But nonetheless, these drugs can often be quite unattainable isn’t it for parents of children like these?
Dr Jo Zayner: [00:17:37] People don’t understand that even though countries might have access to treatments like this. Not all countries have socialized health care system. A lot of countries can’t afford to pay for these drugs. They might not have negotiated the rights to use the drug. And so, what ends up happening is 90% of these gene therapies are dosed to babies in the US. The benefit of these new drugs does not filter (evenly) across the world.
A dollar value on a child
Dr Jo Zayner: [00:18:20] So, they’re not even dosing enough babies to cover the number of babies that are born with these illnesses, much less all the children who have it per year. And then you’re talking about the inconsistencies in availability across the rest of the world. There’s some given in the UK and maybe Australia and other places like that. And so, we’re constantly at this deficit of these drug companies charging ridiculous amounts of money for these drugs, forcing countries and insurance companies to pay these sums for their citizens. To decide between people’s lives and whether they can afford to cover the cost for all their citizens is not ideal. We have such a disregard for human life and such a regard for money. It scares me. It makes me sad and angry. They’re literally putting a dollar value on somebody’s child’s life.
Andrea Macdonald: [00:19:44] If I can take you back to the world of adults and the different ways in which you have and are biohacking yourself, could you talk to us a little bit about that, some of which are very controversial.
Dr Jo Zayner: [00:20:06] In my life, I’m very curious. And obviously one of the things I’m most curious about is myself. But like human beings in general, I think we all are. When it comes down to it at the core of us, living our lives is about just trying to understand ourselves and the people around us. I think that’s really cool. And so, with science. I’m really trying to explore that deeper than anybody else has done so, by doing experiments on myself. And the experiments I do, I try to make sure they’re scientific and rigorous. I collect data and analyse that data and present the data to the world. Usually when I do these experiments, I record as much as possible. Or livestream the whole process, the data collection, the experimentation, everything.
Instigating Scientific Rigour
Dr Jo Zayner: [00:21:27] I’m trying to instigate people to develop an intuition for scientific rigor. So, when they see a video online and somebody claims: Look, I genetically modified myself to do this thing. They’ll look at it with some amount of rigor. And hopefully think I’ve seen before. They measured this and this and this. But this person doesn’t seem to measure those things. So maybe, this claim is not as legitimate as this person is pretending…. I think that’s one of the ways that we can make science more accessible. That is, to be completely transparent with it. There’s such a lack of transparency in science and medicine. It’s sad because this is how you win people’s trust. If we operated this way, there would be a lot less conspiracy theorists.
Dr Jo Zayner: [00:22:35] If you have, live stream videos and processes of clinical trials providing radical transparency that’s going to stop a lot of the conspiracy theorists. Banning them on social media platforms won’t stop conspiracy theorists. It’s going to make the people who want to do science this way go someplace else.
Dr Jo Zayner: [00:23:04] So, to go back to my self-experimentation. I started initially with understanding how one goes about genetically modifying themselves, that is, if an adult human being wanted to genetically modify themselves.
Getting DNA inside human cells
Dr Jo Zayner: [00:23:21] How would they go about doing this? And so, I spent a bunch of time a few years ago in my garage experimenting on myself, on my skin and, trying to see if I could get DNA inside my human cells. And to get that DNA to function in some way.
Dr Jo Zayner: [00:23:50] I started off with jellyfish DNA. There’s a common jellyfish protein that scientists use called green fluorescent protein (GFP) and was trying to put that into my skin cells. And it was such an interesting process because you can’t just type in the Internet, expecting an answer: How does one genetically modify themselves? There’s no like step by step guide out. Now there probably is for me, But, there wasn’t at the time. So, I wondered: How could I go about trying to get DNA into my skin cells? The only way to really figure it out was to try. So, I tried!
Andrea Macdonald: [00:24:38] What was your objective in trying that? Just to see what would happen or was there an objective?
Dr Jo Zayner: [00:24:45] Yeah, the objective was to trailblaze, so that eventually I live in a world that I want, which is where human beings can modify themselves how they see fit. To change their body in ways that they want to. We’re born and this is who we are. For you or me we might not want to accept that. However, there might be some people who might feel that there’s nothing that they would want to change about themselves.
Andrea Macdonald: [00:25:13] I don’t know if I believe that.
Andrea Macdonald: [00:25:20] But we all change ourselves in one way or another physically, don’t we?
Dr Jo Zayner: [00:25:22] I feel like a lot of people want to change or, given the option they would change things about themselves.
Dr Jo Zayner: [00:25:34] About myself, what with me being transgender. I think that’s a really good example. It’s really obvious and in-your-face. There are so many other things people would do. You look at right now, there’s an epidemic of people taking Ozempic, which is amongst other things, a weight loss drug. A bunch of these people who are healthy are taking it “off label”!
Renaissance of human beings being able to change themselves how they see fit
Dr Jo Zayner: [00:26:16] You can’t tell me that people don’t care about changing themselves. It’s just not everybody does it the same way. Not everyone wants to grow boobs. Some people want to just grow a six pack, right? I wanted to usher in, I do still want to usher in, this renaissance of human beings being able to change themselves how they see fit. Right now, we can’t. You’re just stuck with the genetics you have, whether it’s, a genetic disease or illness or, you don’t like the body you were born in.
Dr Jo Zayner: [00:27:03] We should, I think, give ourselves the power and the ability to change that. And by experimenting on myself and understanding how human genetic engineering works, how I can make it accessible and available to people, I think is one of the things that drives progress in the future.
Dr Jo Zayner: [00:27:27] So I did that experiment. I was able to detect the genes functioning in my cells. And it was really cool and exciting. It was the first time I think anybody outside a clinical trial had ever genetically modified themselves. The first time somebody put foreign DNA from a different organism inside their human cells.
Dr Jo Zayner: [00:27:57] It was pretty profound experience for me. This isn’t impossible. Human beings can actually genetically engineer themselves in their garage!
Netflix Documentary Unnatural Selection
Andrea Macdonald: [00:28:15] And there’s a fantastic Netflix documentary called Unnatural Selection. It’s a documentary series. And in that series, they document you injecting yourself with CRISPR. And, what it seemed to trigger in the biohacking world. I am interested in hearing your opinion on the effect your activity here might have had on others in that world.
Creating resources at The ODIN for people to try biotech
Dr Jo Zayner: [00:28:51] It was interesting when I started doing these experiments. My goal was more like documentation and create resources for people who are interested in this technology. I didn’t realize how quickly people would try to take it to do something themselves because at this time, the field of genetic biohackers was still pretty nascent and wasn’t really large. My audience in general wasn’t very large, people weren’t paying attention to me or following me on social media. And when all of a sudden, after I started working on these experiments, other people started following, doing similar things to what I was doing, it was a little crazy. It was a little scary. It was reality check.
Dr Jo Zayner: [00:30:08] For me, understanding that we don’t control technology. We just kind of respond to it. Because once knowledge and information is out in the World, people are going to do what they are going to do with it. And generally, it’s not harmful. I think the majority of people have good intentions.
Speaker5: [00:30:39] But just to see people take stuff and use it in a way that is not intended. Take it down their own path and their own motivations (different to mine) is a little scary.
Dr Jo Zayner: [00:30:59] It was scary for me. I imagine that’s how some people may feel when they see me. They feel a little scared because they think: We can’t control this person. We don’t know what they’re going to do. I get it.
Dr Jo Zayner: [00:31:21] It’s hard when you’re not in control. But I think, that’s necessary for things to move forward and progress and for us all to benefit from technology like this. There’s going to be that scary part in the beginning where we think: Oh, what’s going to happen? The nervous anxiety like before you go on stage. But I think in the end it’s going to be really beautiful. Because to me, for human beings, sure there are people who are negative and harmful and angry and mean. But I think 99.9% of humans have a really good heart or, are at least pretending to have one. I think that means that usually the people that create these technologies are motivated to help benefit us all. For example, people aren’t trying to create an AI to destroy the world. No, they’re trying to create AI’s to benefit the world and I think it’s the same with biotechnology. We have to put trust in others a little bit.
Dr Kevin Esvelt and Gene Drives
Andrea Macdonald: [00:32:35] Well, there are a couple of guys I’d like to talk to you about, one of which is a Dr. Kevin Esvelt and his work on gene drives. I noticed in the ideas section of your website you’re also interested in eventually working on a gene drive in the future. Can you talk a little bit about gene drives.
Dr Jo Zayner: [00:33:06] That’s funny! Oh, gosh, that’s funny that you caught on to that. It’s interesting.
Andrea Macdonald: [00:33:14] Well, I explored the ideas section because this is ideaXme! So, I went straight for that.
Dr Jo Zayner: [00:33:21] I think it’s interesting because my goal in life is generally to take stuff that people want to own and possess and control and to set it free. Sometimes, to the benefit of humanity and maybe sometimes to the uproar and clamour of humanity. My goal in the end is just to devalue this idea that science can only be done by few people or, people like Kevin. No offense to Kevin. I mean, we’re not friends. We’re probably like, frenemies.
Dr Jo Zayner: [00:34:17] These people want to own technology. To be the only ones who can use this technology or. They think that they are the only one who can use it ethically or morally. Wait! A fascist would say: Don’t worry, trust me, I’m the only one who can ethically decide how to use this correctly. My opinion is: Wait a second! What gives you the right and the power to act and think this way?
Andrea Macdonald: [00:34:51] What I find fascinating is the area of your work where you both have similarities. You both believe that it is absolutely imperative to work with the community.
The community as stakeholders in biotech
Dr Jo Zayner: [00:35:06] Yeah, for sure. In Kevin’s position he is asking people: Can I use this or not? Which I think as an outsider coming in can seem I want to help, and I know better. (Many have responded negatively and with suspicion to this approach). This wasn’t developed by the community, for the community, which I think if somebody from the community came to the community and said, hey, look I developed this. I’m invested in this community because I’ve lived here. I’ve been part of this community. The reception of these ideas in the community would be so much greater and better because it’s not somebody trying to invade the community and impose something on it.
Dr Jo Zayner: [00:36:32] Instead, it comes from pure motives of like me trying to benefit my community myself. I’m trying to benefit myself because I am part of this community and that’s what I think biohacking and science education does it starts to take science away from like something that we utilize and becomes something that is part of our communities.
Dr Jo Zayner: [00:37:05] It’s something that we are connected to. And., I think that’s the difference between Kevin’s and my approach. My approach is: Let the community build it or make them stake owners in the building of it.
Dr Jo Zayner: [00:37:23] I am not an advocate of: Understand this or, your kind of dumb. I am not saying Kevin says this.
Andrea Macdonald: [00:37:36] For the benefit of people who have not come across gene drives, could you explain what they are and give a couple of examples?
Dr Jo Zayner: [00:37:44] Yeah. Gene drives are a mechanism that scientists are trying to create. Whereby you expose the population to a gene. That provides some sort of evolutionary advantage to the organism. And so, it spreads rapidly through a population. And this can be both positive and negative. Mostly scientists want to use it in a negative way to wipe out invasive species or, wipe out traits that cause disease. In animals the big one that people work on is generally mosquitoes trying to engineer mosquitoes that don’t reproduce. Mosquitoes are deadly in some parts of the world. They cause malaria and consequently many deaths. In the developed world. We usually don’t have these issues, but a lot of countries do.
Dr Jo Zayner: [00:39:03] Rats and other stuff. And so, it’s large variety of organisms. People are worried, though, if Gene drives work as they say they work these genes could rapidly spread through populations in general. If you’re trying to sterilize all mosquitoes. Who’s to say that one of these genetically engineered mosquitoes doesn’t pass the gene drive to wild mosquitoes and then all of a sudden, all mosquitoes in the world are wiped out? Not that anybody would really complain.
Andrea Macdonald: [00:39:45] I noticed that they’ve also been working on Lyme disease and eradicating ticks from certain parts of America.
Dr Jo Zayner: [00:39:57] The problem is that they’ve learned that gene drives don’t work like they theoretically expected. In the real world, it’s a lot more complicated than in a lab. And so actualizing and testing gene drives that work in the real world hasn’t really happened. So, it less something I think we should be worried about right now, maybe in the future.
Dr Jo Zayner: [00:40:35] Having these communities that are our stakeholders in our science is really important. It is with their participation that we can make more informed decisions about the science and how it’s utilized in our communities.
Andrea Macdonald: [00:40:54] So what’s happening next?
Scaling the work of Dr Jo Zayner
Dr Jo Zayner: [00:40:58] What’s happening next? That’s a good question. I think right now, what I really care about is: How do I increase the scale of what I’m doing? When we’re talking about making genetic engineering technology, science, medicine more accessible and available to people bringing about the future that I want. That’s what I’m trying to figure out right now. The world is ready for a lot of these things.
Dr Jo Zayner: [00:41:46] You know, I think people are becoming less trusting of governments and institutional bodies and do want the ability to protect themselves. And to take care of themselves and their loved ones. And I think that’s really important. You know, I think that’s the minimum we should be able to have. We all should be able to take care of ourselves if we or our loved one is hurting or in pain or sick. I think that we all should have that opportunity.
Andrea Macdonald: [00:42:37] So how do people learn more? Find out more about you and your work. How do they connect with you?
Dr Jo Zayner: [00:42:48] I’m on every social media platform. Twitter. Facebook. Instagram.
Dr Jo Zayner: [00:42:54] I run the ODIN, a genetic engineering company. We sell kits for everybody to learn how to do genetic engineering at home. We ship all over the world. A really cool kit, just released, is a plant genetic engineering kit. It is super fun!
Dr Jo Zayner: [00:43:12] I think it’s one of my favourites. You know, it allows you to genetically engineer a plant in your home. That’s really exciting. So, yeah, check out www.the-odin.com.
Dr Jo Zayner: [00:43:25] Or, find me on social media.
Andrea Macdonald: [00:43:27] Dr. Jo Zayner, thank you very much for your time. It’s been an absolute pleasure talking to you.
Dr Jo Zayner: [00:43:33] Thanks for having me on. It was good. Definitely brought up some interesting questions and things, that made me think a little bit.
Interview credit: Andrea Macdonald
If you liked this interview, be sure to check out our interview with Dr David Grinspoon.
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